The Only Podcast That Matters - A Conversation With Throwing Fits
Calling themselves “the only podcast that matters“ might seem like show-boating, but in regard to James Harris and Lawrence Schlossman, the shoe seems to fit.
While the terms menswear, street fashion, or whatever you might call it in 2022 sells everything that needs a touch of cool or flashiness, James and Lawrence went a route that might not make a lot of sense at first - talking about fashion without showing it.
A podcast, while being the most popular or hyped medium today for everybody, who thinks that he has even the slightest quantum of relevance, is still just audible.
True Crime podcasts for example play out like a radio play. Their plot twists and gruesome details keep the listeners chained to their streaming device, just like Orson Welles did in 1938 when his radio play War of the Worlds started a mass hysteria, because radio listeners took his descriptions of UFOs landing on planet earth at face value.
Just an audio description of a garment, or “jawn“ as the two podcast hosts and their devoted fan base - the “Throw Gang“ [in earlier days called the “Fail Gang“] - call it, does not seem quite right at first glance. But the thing is, it works. Their success on the podcast charts, collaborations with brands and guests ranging from Jonah Hill to Zack Bia to Outkast’s Big Boi back this up.
That’s the shtick of Throwing Fits. They talk about fashion without actually showing fashion. And they do this with friends and people in the industry or better said, their extended universe full of creative people, who are shaping the world of fashion today.
Sometimes labeled the “Shock Jocks of Fashion“, James and Lawrence are no newcomers to the fashion circuit. They did everything from working in retail in their youth to interning and working at prestigious fashion agencies like BPMW in New York to writing for Complex, where they also started their first show “FASHION BROS”.
At FASHION BROS, they got their first opportunity to bring their unique sense of humor to the masses. The show did not only feature their reactions to street style photography before the YouTube reaction-craze took over, they also invited a wide variety of guests like Mike the Ruler or Asspizza at a time when they were just beginning to blow up on IG, heavyweights from the music industry like Rae Sremmurd and Migos, and fashion insiders like Tommy Ton.
They started their podcast [Back then called FAILING UPWARDS] in 2016, and over the years it gained a cult-following among fashion fanatics.
We had the opportunity to talk to James and Lawrence about their journey into the industry, how to build your own brand, the “Post Sneaker World“, the guilty pleasure of consuming clothing on an unhealthy level, the dangers of falling victim to the “hype machine“, and many more topics. Check out what they had to say below.
James, Lawrence, before we come to how you guys single-handedly changed the fashion world and got everybody into exchanging their sneakers for leather loafers and Birkenstocks... Could you please introduce yourself to the Sabukaru Network?
James Harris [JH]
My name is James Harris. I am the co-host of the THROWING FITS podcast. Shout out all my Tomodachis and Kazoku in Nippon. Shout out to the motherland and all the Sabukaru readers in Japan.
Lawrence Schlossman [LS]
And I am Lawrence Schlossman. I am the other co-host of THROWING FITS, also known as “the only podcast that matters“. And shout out to Frank Ocean. I know you are reading this. Frankie, please come on the podcast. That would be dope.
When was the first time you got interested in fashion and streetwear? Was it something that happened when you were already a teenager? Or was it always in your DNA?
JH
For me it was growing up in New York City. It's baked into the absolute DNA of NY. And that’s just like the reason, why New York is the best city in the world. It’s just the people, right? The people on the street. You know, the cliche is that the streets in New York are the runway. The earliest thing I can remember is wanting to be cool, whether that's born from insecurity, or just like development of what you're interested in, you know. Seeing guys dressing and being introduced to rap and hip hop.
And then you see the cool kids… the older kids coming to school wearing baggy gear, baggy jeans. In fifth grade all I really wanted was some UFO parachute pants. It was the late 90’s and I wanted some JNCO’s, but my parents said ”no”. So I got some carpenter pants from a store like Kmart. And I remember walking down SOHO and seeing the Stüssy store for the first time and I was just like “What the fuck is this?“.
Yeah, if you walked around NY and had your eyes open, you realized the aesthetics. People dressed a certain way, because they liked the same stuff. It was a tribe mentality.
LS
I will echo a lot of what James is saying. I didn't grow up in New York City. I grew up in New Jersey, but yeah, for me regardless of what I was into when I was younger, whether it was some niche subculture stuff like punk rock, skateboarding or basketball. For me it was all about what people were wearing. Always observing the moods.
When you are playing basketball growing up you needed to have the T Mac adidas. I need to wear some Reeboks with punk rock. Always wearing the right brand, you see? This is like what James is saying about wanting to be down.
I've joked before that I am a poser at heart. And I say that jokingly because I really have a lot of interests. And when I find something I'm interested in, whether now as an adult or back when I was young, I just go hard. I'm really falling in love with this thing. And I'm going 1000%.
I'm researching the fuck out of it, whether or not I'm good at the actual activity, whether I can kick flip or fucking shred or just can’t skate at all. It doesn't matter. And with that comes a love and appreciation for the uniforms that people wear. And that has been with me as far back as I can remember. I remember laying out an outfit before the first day of school with the right trainers and a fucking fire UNIONBAY sweater-vest that probably wouldn't look out of place on Instagram today.
That has just been there with me with me my whole life and even the interests have changed, the foundational element of being aware of how people dress in all these activities has never left.
JH
And that was pre-internet, pre-Tumblr, pre-Instagram. We had skate videos. I remember standing in line at Tower Records to get a signed CD by DMX and that was where you see shit, right? How people dress. You actually had to observe the things in real life as a young kid and then try to develop your own fucking swag.
For people not coming from a fashion capital like NY or Tokyo, at a certain point growing up you had to decide on a culture you wanted to be a part of. You decided to be part of the hiphop scene, where you entered by going to a certain club to hang out with certain people. If you were into punk, you knew which park to hang out at. With a city like NY or Tokyo, you are automatically surrounded by so much more influence than growing up in a small town.
JH
Yeah, I think there's this notion of like, you know, everyone used to be like one thing. You're a punk, you're a nerd, you're into hip hop, you skate. And all these different subcultures are like ”you're that and that alone”. And that is clearly flattened. The beauty of New York City is that every single person we just described is on the subway car at the exact same time, right? So you can just look around and see all this shit. And you're exposed to that not just in subcultures and fashion.
We were being exposed to diversity in all forms at an early age. They say city kids grow up fast. But I think that there's the whole notion of never subscribing to one thing entirely. It’s easier in New York, because you don’t have to consume media to experience. You have everything right in your face. People are black, brown, white, yellow, purple. You don’t have to subscribe to one thing or one subculture.
This concept that we talked about with being from New York and being exposed to all those different cultures is in a way, what's happening right now. But instead of New York, it's the internet. When you look at the streetwear culture. It has so many influences. It's a global scene. Now everything is like a single village, but influenced by everything.
JH
But still the loudest voices are the most heard. If you flatten everything you still only have a handful of influential people and brands that a lot of people look to. And then they're just like “That's what I want to be. So I will dress like that. I’m gonna talk like that“ versus “living every day and having different experiences and seeing different things“. Lawrence always talks about this. Dressing like “paint by numbers“.
LS
The internet democratized the subcultures and made them global. And that’s awesome.
We don't prescribe to gatekeeping. The more good taste and cool shit in the world the better. But with that comes just natural conformity. That's just like statistics, right.
But unfortunately, there's downsides to that, not to mention the whole fucking commercialization of the whole space. This isn't anything new. We've seen it kind of increase at an exponential rate over the past couple of years. The scales are tipping towards commerce. Which is unfortunate for a variety of reasons. That’s what we talk about on the podcast.
JH
It’s not just the internet, but with social media. We had “Web 1.0“ with forums. People nowadays look back at it like “…back in my day, now everything’s changing…“. Looking back at that time through rose-colored lenses. Back then everything was more pure.
LS
Super Future, Nike Talk, Hypebeast forum. I wasn’t a big forum guy, but the communities came from there and carved out their corners on a variety of social media platforms. Blogs, Tumblr, Twitter, Instagram and even fucking Clubhouse. We are privileged to be were we are today.
And I think that there is some responsibility. I would never call us thought leaders or influencers. Because, despite my ego, I have too much class for that.
But there is some level of responsibility that comes with being a part of this thing for at least a decade. And you know there are people that even predate us. The “super OG’s“ like Paul Mittleman. But let's be real. We came up at a very special time. We should feel blessed.
That’s why we see a lot of people, that you met maybe 10 years ago at sneaker events or met in forums are nowadays shaping the culture. Back then they were consuming, but this generation was - because of the rise of the Internet, the rise of forums - the first generation that could connect worldwide. That’s why so many people at our age are now in high positions. Somebody who was just a consumer took over out of his own. You don’t have to go to school to get the jobs that you can get nowadays. That people build something out of the love that they constantly had. The love they shared with their communities on the web.
LS
Not that education isn't important for for a variety of careers, but outside of like, I don't know, going to school to learn how to be like a designer. Yeah, I don't even know why you would fucking go to college.
JH
I think learning how to think critically and not accept things at face value is important.
Like learning how to have a critical eye or critical lens, so that you're not just like consuming the bullshit that people try to feed you. You have to be like “Wait a second… Why do I like this?“.
Let’s talk about Throwing Fits, a podcast that on a regular basis tops every podcast chart. Isn’t it kind of abstract to have success with a medium that is just audio even though everything you talk about is visual? you are talking about clothing, Something that people love to experience in a store, you know? Feeling the fabrics, trying on the garment. Those things, at first glance do not match. But that I think that’s what makes your podcast stand out. Is that the recipe of your success?
JH
I mean it sounds like a joke. We launched an audio medium about about a visual art form. But right? It shouldn't work. But I think that speaks to the fact that… you know… sure, it's just clothes, right? It's just what you're wearing. But I think it speaks to the fact that there is so much depth to the culture and the individuals that kind of comprise this. There’s so many interesting people. There's so many interesting stories to uncover. And we're not only talking clothes when we talk Jawnz enthusiasm. We’re talking media, film, TV, music, sports athletes.
Even when we do talk to a fashion designer… like what the fuck are we going to talk to a fashion designer about? “Yo, tell us about the stitching!“
Yeah, that's important. But I think it's also like “Yo, what movies are you watching? What music are you fucking with right now?“
I think that the fact that we were able to launch a successful audio medium about a visual art form just goes to show that there is so much more beneath the surface of just the visual and just the aesthetics. It’s a culture.
LS
There’s a two part answer.
First it's like, what are we talking about when we talk about clothes? A lot of times we're talking about everything, but the clothes themselves. And that's not to say that James and I cannot get absolutely nerdy about the nitty gritty details. There's just so much more.
Is the show really a fashion podcast? Or is it a podcast about just general enthusiasm for a variety of topics? James named film, music, specifically hip hop, celebrity pop culture, you know? From the news to the general whatever.
And now the cocky part of the answer:
For me the reason that we can top the charts, despite having a podcast about fashion, is that we are more entertaining and we are funnier. And I also like to think we are more insightful than nearly everybody else who does this. And more handsome. We are handsome geniuses. And I think the enthusiasm has to be real.
People like to hear us connecting with the guests or just us connecting with each other through their headphones. And I’d like to think that we're the only podcast that can have famous A-list celebrities on one day and turn around and talk to some person with 3000 followers on Instagram, if we find their writing or whatever it is they're doing super interesting. We will have a super entertaining conversation with that person and then turn around and have some fucking swaggy photographer that Virgil Abloh fucks with on the next week. Are you familiar?
Speaking about your guests. I guess you get a lot of emails with people asking to be on the podcast, right? How do you select your next guest?
JH
Are they doing shit that we fuck with? It doesn't matter if you have 1000 followers on Instagram and you're like an activist or if you're an A list celebrity like Jonah Hill. I mean, we have a running wish list of harder to get celebs. But we're not starting to play the game where we get to email a publicist. I think we're pretty selective. We definitely turned down some bigger names, where we knew it just wouldn't work, or where we think they’re not gonna talk to us honestly. We need to have a very long meaningful conversation. We had the creative director of Arc’teryx, Cooper Gill, who had like 200 Instagram followers at the time.
Are you familiar with the German painter Albrecht Dürer? An artist from the 1500’s.
JH
Maybe I learned about him in art history. But that was one of my weakest subjects…
LS
Nah dude. I fucking killed art history. I'm a Goya man myself, but I do not know what the fuck Dürer is. I obviously love fucking “Saturn Devouring His Son“. And I fuck with Caravaggio, because I think he killed a dude, slept with mad women and inspired Virgil Abloh.
So coming back to Dürer. When nobody from this part of the world had ever seen a rhino, Dürer painted one only based on descriptions and it really really looked like a rhino. Maybe a little more badass. That comes back to you guys talking about things that the listeners can not see at that moment. It mystifies it a little bit and it really pushes the lust for more information. That is what we really like about the concept of talking about fashion without actually seeing it.
LS
That makes sense. Yeah.
JH
I'm looking at this now. Great fucking reference. It looks like Bebop or Rocksteady. Ninja Turtles. But yeah, we can paint the mental image of this industry. Even more badass and iconic than it might actually be in real life. I'll take that as a compliment for sure.
You guys coined the term “Post Sneaker World“, by talking about leather loafers, Birkenstocks and Crocs before they became fashion staples like they are right now. A think a lot of your listeners probably had some nice leather loafers at home. But it was their parents wearing them. And then you started talking about it. So basically the loafer is the rhino. It’s a classic and great piece of clothing, but you guys talking about it made it sound, and therefore look even more awesome.
LS
You know? Yeah, that's a great point. Sure.
Let’s stick to the “Post Sneaker World“. You came around wearing leather loafers at a time and when it was all about sneakers. It seemed kind of punk rock-ish, like wearing something just for shock value that would completely go against the mainstream. Was it just a statement against the status quo?
JH
What opened my eyes to non-sneakers was Mark McNary. How he was taking traditional silhouettes and mashing them up with something crazy. This kind of funky attitude to the whole establishment while still while still having an appreciation and a crazy knowledge of the world of menswear. And he came from Supreme and Brooks Brothers. He was able to combine all these different influences into something. That was super unique.
And now sneakers are treated like a financial commodity. I think that it's to the detriment of people who love sneakers. We still love sneakers and wear them.
What we reject with the “Post Sneaker World“ is buying something because it’s hard to get. Just to fancy yourself an entrepreneur for reselling or posting them on IG to get clout.
The shoe world is just as fire and vibrant as the sneaker world. We collaborated with Blackstock & Weber, a loafer brand with crazy quality, great history and an accessible price point.
You think Nike gives a fuck if you can get your hands on their newest releases? They just want you to submit your name to their app.
LS
For me personally speaking I was into basketball shoes, not just Jordans, but when I really fell in love with shoes, I was already in college. We’re talking about Clark’s, G.H. Bass Weejuns and Gucci loafers.
For me the sneaker shit really kind of came a bit later when James and I were at Complex, where we worked with amazing knowledgeable fashion editors and OG sneaker heads.
And to throw out another hypothesis on why the “Post Sneaker World“ has been lovingly embraced with open arms - you buy the sickest, rarest Air Jordans and then do the Spider Man meme in real life and you're pointing at another dude who has that same shit on.
You want to be unique and and not feel like a statistic and that's very tough to do when you see somebody else wearing the exact same sneakers in the exact same colorway. So I think that there's been a rejection of that and there's like super fucking incredibly fly options in the hard bottom space. Wether it's loafers or lace ups and I'm not gonna see 100 other dudes wearing the same shit.
Before you got into podcasting, How did you guys start out in fashion? I know you worked in retail.
LS
I worked at Hollister in the mall, but I never worked in cool retail.
I got into the industry by writing and blogging. I had a Tumblr. No, no… Before Tumblr I had a Blogspot. Sartoriallyinclined.blogspot.com. It's still up anyway. It was writing and becoming part of this kind of “outsider voice menswear digital community“, which from Blogspot migrated to Tumblr and became the hashtag “menswear“. Writing got me my first job. If I go back and read that shit, it's nothing that I'm super proud of, but I'm not going to delete it. Blogging got my foot in the door at the the first showroom and PR agency that James and I worked at together called BPMW. They were carrying brands like Wolverine Boots, Penfield, Clae Shoes, Norse Projects. So for me, it was all blogging. That was 2009. Yeah, that's a long time ago. God damn…
JH
I never thought I could work in fashion or menswear. But I had saved all my money from a few earlier jobs and just took an internship at this agency, while working part time and odd jobs on the side.
The goal was always like “Let me just do this cool, fun thing in this realm that I like with brands and cool seeming people“.
For us back then, it was about meeting the individuals behind the brands. That’s when you can actually form a connection with the brands itself. For example, my favorite brand is Our Legacy. That's because as an unpaid intern, being treated like shit by like 75% of the people, I met Jockum Hallin, Our Legacy’s founder, who took time out of his day to actually talk and listen to me.
We met Kyle Ng, the head designer of Brain Dead, when he was working on his first brands.
This agency we worked at - BPMW - was started by three women, who were all friendly.
Like three women in menswear, which was outstanding at the time. Probably still is.
But the plan was to do this and put it on my resume and maybe get some free clothes. And then I got offered a job. It was actually Lawrence's job and they gave me a laptop. It was Lawrence’ old one. And I opened it up and there was nothing on it. He was just blogging and on Tumblr the whole time.
LS
Yeah, I was selling a book at that time.
JH
And you sold the book, you were building your own brand.
LS
I was. 1000%, Dude! The benefit of now finally working for ourselves is, that I can actually do what I've set out to do back then. Build my own shit versus always doing it on the side and finally finding success. I think that is what James and I were born for - to promote ourselves.
JH
I think rebelliousness has always been ingrained in us and I hate being told what to do. I hate being told what to wear. I fucking being told “You should do this! You should do that!“. I will just push back in the opposite direction. And after working in the fashion industry, the fashion media industry and even the larger music industry machine, we were able to launch something that we can do completely on our own terms.
We don’t have to wear some bullshit, doing work we don’t want to do, come home and just on the couch and veg out, because you just been fucking writing dumb, stupid fucking emails all day. Oh god, I hate that shit. That's the dream right now and that trumps everything - the fact that I'm able to just like work with a good friend and just like build shit on our own terms, you know, which is the dream.
LS
And that's why I think people are drawn to it. We're honest, and we're real. The bottom line is like, we give a shit, right? That's, the biggest difference, I think, that I've seen in my life professionally. And I'm admitting, coming from a place of privilege, where there’s kids that would kill for those kind of more mainstream industry jobs, but I just remember always being dissatisfied and a lot of times not giving a shit, even though I definitely should have. And I'm not afraid to admit that.
My new detail or thing that James and I like need to figure out the daily like “Ok, we now give a shit“. And we really believe that I think that comes through in the product. And is probably to account for some degree of the success and also just found in this year of basically do over the year a little bit of a year plus of doing throwing fits on our own independently, which is obviously what we're referencing right now.
JH
And also just going back to like our previous experience before the podcast. In most jobs people just show up, send their fucking emails and go home. And it's demoralizing. It's soul crushing. It's bad for the culture.
There was a guy who was a dentist, and wanted to become a social media manager because it seemed lit, it seemed fun to do. But he didn't understand what goes on behind the scenes.
LS
Not to be a fucking cranky boomer, but if somebody is just looking at social media and they're like “Oh, this guy's life is so fucking lit. All he does is like show up, get fits off and that’s his job. And it's so fucking easy“ he should just stop immediately.
Obviously, you don't show the unglamorous parts of your job in your life on social media. The veneer of social media is just that it's absolutely superficial.
JH
We are not here to destroy or crush anyone. Chase your fucking dream. But before you do that, you should think long and hard about the dream you're chasing and why you are chasing it. Nothing is gonna magically land in your lap.
So we already came to the conclusion that going to university does not make any sense. But at the end of the day I think those jobs and internships that you guys did… you could see that as a different version of university. You learned about the insides and continued to build your own brand.
LS
You got to be curious and learn critical thinking and get the right mindset. But you won’t find that contained within four walls or on a piece of paper and that's what we tell kids. If you're starting at a shitty retail job, you better make the fucking most of it. You meet people, you better fucking network. Learn how to be fucking charming. Try to soak up as much fucking knowledge as you can.
JH
In culture industry specifically, people hire people that they like, right? So you got to be a good person. And you have to learn those interpersonal skills. But I just want to say the one thing about university or college that I really do appreciate. It’s that my current group of friends are college friends. None of them work in this industry. When I hang out with them I don't have to talk about this shit. It’s a great mental break for me. I see people whose only friends are their work friends. What the fuck are you gonna talk about except fashion?
LS
And if you need fashion friends, let us be your fashion friends. That's what the podcast is there for. If none of your friends care about sneakers, fucking hiphop, fucking GORE-TEX or rare Japanese denim, just listen to the podcast.
JH
Probably the best part is when we see the comments on IG, when some kid says “I'm the only kid in my fucking smallest town that gives a shit about this. And everyone just calls me gay. But I found like minded people through Throwing Fits and now you guys are my internet homies“.
LS
There are real friendships, even romantic relationships, just through this community that exists around the show. It's sick that this pays our rent, but this is something else.
James and I don't ever want to seem like we take that for granted. We want the show to be enjoyable and entertaining, but it's meaningful on a deeper level and with great power, as Spider Man's fucking dead ass uncle would say, comes great responsibility. Rest in peace, Uncle Ben.
When your podcast started it was one of the few times that people, especially in a humorous way, talked about topics like consumerism. The behavior of just consuming to make yourself feel better. And even though we all have fun in fashion it's like a disclaimer you guys send out. It’s always like “This is cool, but don’t do it. It's not everything.”
Like looking back at Jonah Hill in SUPERBAD, the promotional videos were always just very disrespectful, about how he is a “funny fat guy” pressed into a certain role, but not how he was in real life. You were the first medium to address him in another way and that made people accept how they are in regard to body positivity. That’s the real “glow up”, right? And of course being aware of the destructive aspect of consuming.
LS
I think topics like loving yourself and trying to be as best of a conscientious consumer as possible is very important. We are just honest, man, and maybe it’s the angle we bring to it. The show has never pulled punches back when nobody listened. We were sharing one microphone and now we're hitting number one on the charts. And we have this very devoted community. We haven’t changed the approach, the name has maybe changed, but those guys are the same dudes that that did this, when no one was listening.
JH
We are at a place where everything is happening all at once and nowadays it’s just like “Yo, we have to like, we have to cover everything at all times. And we cannot miss anything. And we have to be first and we have to be best“. And everybody is like “Yo, what to cop and how to cop it“.
But for me it goes back to understanding “why do I want this? Or am I’m just being told to want this by the “hype machine“ that is literally just like tricking my brain into thinking that I want to give a company the privilege of taking my money by like, entering a raffle to fucking spend money with them?
What are your priorities? Is it actually sustainability? Is it about supporting a small local or a black owned brand?
I understand the serotonin that hits from a new package arriving for me. Now I get that from putting together fire fits with some jawnz that I've owned for years.
But for a lot of people it’s “Oh my God! I see it, I want it, I buy it“.
LS
That’s the concept of the grail. Just like, loving what you wear, and how that affects you making you a better version of yourself. A more confident person, a happier person. How clothes and outfits can unlock these superpowers in you. A lot of things we like are expensive, and it feels like there's always new ones you have to buy. But you have to acknowledge that it’s the system. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Unfortunately, you often cannot control that. I think it’s important to know how those things affect us emotionally and it's important to acknowledge what's happening and then using that information to lean into habits that are probably healthier.
You have to realize that personal swag or drip or whatever fucking term you want to use comes from inside. You can't buy that. The sooner you realize that, the better you're gonna dress and the happier you're gonna be.
Thank you guys for taking some time to chat with us and giving us an inside into what you are doing.
Any last words?
LS
The more good taste in the world, the better. I think, yeah, that's basically it right there.
Interview & Text by Maurice Caiza Andersen
